Wang Cai inwardly cursed his luck. Even if he couldn't sway Mu Chaobi, he couldn't let Zhu Mo persuade him either! If that happened, not only would he fail, but he'd be blamed. Given the temper of the Young Grand Secretary, how could he let Wang Cai off the hook?
With this thought,
He said with a half-smile,
"Esteemed Scholar Zhu, this is our first meeting. It is truly a great honor..."
Heh heh,
Zhu Mo disliked this man. He smiled and said,
"Mr. Wang, you are a rare talent. Today, we are both guests, so no need for formalities."
Uh,
Wang Cai paused, thinking: They say you, Zhu Mo, are venomous. It seems the rumors are true; you're even worse than they say. If you say no formalities, then so be it...
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He coughed and put on a serious expression,
"Scholar Zhu, I have heard your profound discourse just now. Naturally, I do not agree. However, I have a small point of confusion, and I would ask Scholar Zhu to enlighten me."
Mm-hmm,
Zhu Mo nodded.
Wang Cai, ignoring the awkwardness, continued,
"I have also read the Hongwu Veritable Records. Hmm, I believe that the Emperor Taizu's reign was a case of correcting an excess with an excess. When one corrects an excess, extraordinary measures are naturally required. Therefore, I believe that what is called 'weighty in one era and light in another' was merely a temporary expedient. Once all affairs are in order, one should naturally return to the middle path... Therefore, Emperor Taizu's dying instruction to the Imperial Grandson was indeed true, and his words were also genuine. Minister Li, at that time, transcribed it faithfully and did not alter it."
Oh?
Zhu Mo asked in surprise,
"Really? What is the evidence?"
Wang Cai replied, "Veritable records have always been written truthfully. Altering sentences is a crime of deceiving the emperor! Scholar Zhu, if something exists, it exists; if it does not, it does not. That is not manipulation, is it..."
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Heh heh,
Zhu Mo smiled,
"Then why is that sentence absent from the Hongwu Veritable Records left by the Yongle reign, yet it appears in the revised version from the Hongzhi reign?"
Wang Cai scoffed,
"I have never heard of a Yongle reign version... Veritable records have always been a single volume, never two."
Hmph!
His retort immediately annoyed Zhu Mo. After all, he had seen a picture posted by a great god on "Mouhu," and in the late Ming dynasty, many records were scattered, with various collectors possessing different versions. This man was clearly talking nonsense.
He immediately said,
"To know what you know, and to not know what you do not know, just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right? I won't engage in a pointless argument with you. Since you're arguing based on reason, let's talk reason... Uh, then I must ask, you say Emperor Taizu corrected an excess. What was that excess he corrected?"
Wang Cai, confident in his eloquence, smiled,
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"What is that excess? The whole world knows it is the ignorance of the Mongol Yuan! They ate raw meat, were covered in blood and filth, had no order in governance, and were lax and undisciplined. Furthermore, they allowed the Darughachi to oppress the people relentlessly, leading to suffering and the downfall of a civilized land into a domain of beasts. Why speak further?"
Zhu Mo couldn't help but sneer and retorted,
"So, were Emperor Taizu's three great cases and four great edicts all directed at the Hu people? Were Lan Yu and Hu Weiyong also Hu people? And were the tens of thousands implicated all Hu people?"
You?
Wang Cai was immediately speechless, forcing himself to argue,
"Though not Hu people, they acted like Hu people!"
Hiss!
Yu Chaosheng's anger flared—
His ancestor, Yu Tongyuan, had been implicated in the Hu Weiyong case. Although he was long dead, his title of Marquis of Nan'an was still stripped. It was also widely circulated that his ancestor Temür was from the Kipchak people, and subsequent generations were often reviled as Hu people.
In reality, Bu Huate Mù'ěr or Tuo Huān Tiemù'ěr were merely Mongol names. While their ancestors did indeed come from the Kipchak steppes, tracing back, they were Han Chinese from the Da Tong era. It was only during the reign of Emperor Taizong of Yuan, Ögedei, that they were incorporated into the Western expeditionary army and enfeoffed in the Kipchak steppes, thus settling there.
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This secret was unknown to others, and even most within the clan were unaware. But at this moment, Wang Cai's mention of acting like Hu people reminded him of being called a Hu barbarian since childhood, and he became instantly enraged. He sneered,
"Brother Zinan, you are being too one-sided. The subjects and people Emperor Taizu punished were not all Tatars. Were Hu Weiyong and Lan Yu also Tatars? As far as I know, they didn't act like Hu people either!"
This?
Wang Cai finally remembered the Yu family's affairs and felt he had misspoken. He said with a wry smile,
"Jing'an, that's not what I meant! Scholar Zhu says Emperor Taizu corrected an excess with an excess, naturally correcting the barbarous customs of the Mongol Yuan..."
Hmph!
Yu Chaosheng thought to himself: While we received help from the Yan family, we are not their servants. How could we possibly become slaves to Yan Shifan? This point must be clarified, otherwise, the world will say that the Jianwen officials are mixed up with the Yan family!
"Brother Zinan, Emperor Taizu's correction of excess was not solely directed at barbarian customs. It had deeper implications, and the world is watching. If there is no proper explanation, how can people be convinced? Brother Zinan, on this point, is the Young Grand Secretary also so careless?"
This?
Wang Cai sighed inwardly: These people are so muddled. Since they want to deal with Zhu Mo, then go for it. Why worry about so much? Alas, these people always get bogged down in these minor details. What is the point of the Young Grand Secretary wanting to win them over?
Reader ID-563743675
He thought this, but outwardly he yielded, apologizing,
"Brother Jing'an, let's just say I misspoke..."
Mu Chaobi shook his head and sighed,
"Both of you, stop arguing. As far as I know, Emperor Taizu used severe punishments back then to deal with rebellious and wicked officials, and to vent the people's grievances... The empire was newly established, and Emperor Taizu wanted to set a rule to warn officials and ministers and prevent them from harming the people... Scholar Zhu asked what excess was corrected? That was the oppressive governance of the people! This is the consensus of the world, no need to argue further.
However, using this as an opportunity, I would like to ask Scholar Zhu a question... You say that a sentence was added to Emperor Taizu's veritible records, so what? I truly do not understand why you two are arguing so much over this sentence?"
He wasn't ignorant, but rather genuinely wanted to hear Zhu Mo's explanation of his ideas behind the reforms and how they related to the Way of Emperor Taizu. If they were merely using Emperor Taizu's name to act, then it would be to uproot the Great Ming dynasty.
Zhu Mo naturally guessed his intentions. He pondered for a moment and said,
"My Lord Duke, this sentence is important because it was altered by Li Dongyang... Who is Li Dongyang? He was the Grand Chancellor after Hu Weiyong! And during Emperor Taizu's reign, it was explicitly forbidden to establish a Grand Chancellor again... Have you all not heard of this?"
Fu Yingfang seemed to realize something and nodded,
"There is indeed such a rule, and Li Dongyang in the Hongzhi reign was indeed a true Grand Chancellor. The system of the Chief Grand Secretary acting as regent truly began with him..."
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Upon saying this, he suddenly thought of something and immediately fell silent.
Zhu Mo then said sternly,
"That's right! This is where we discuss the foundational principle of Emperor Taizu's establishment of the dynasty... I once said in Jiangnan that our dynasty was founded on the Great Way of Yao and Shun, and this is absolutely true! The severe laws Emperor Taizu implemented were not about cruelty, but about his determination to restore the Great Way!
My Lord Duke, if Emperor Taizu wanted the system of a sage, why would he abolish the position of Grand Chancellor? Li Dongyang is far removed. Let's talk about Yang Tinghe. Why does he have such animosity towards the Emperor? This shows that Emperor Taizu and Hu Weiyong were just like this back then, weren't they? When the Yuan dynasty was nearing its end, and the realm was lost, the Central Plains were like the primordial wilderness... When Emperor Taizu recreated China, he naturally had to straighten things out from the beginning. If not from Yao and Shun, where else would he start? But the literati officials were accustomed to the customs of the Mongol Yuan, ignorant of heavenly mandates and ancient teachings. How could they inherit the system of the Son of Heaven and the literati governing together?
I won't hide it from you all, I did indeed submit a memorial to the Emperor in the past, and what I stated was precisely this. You all must know that the most important matter Emperor Taizu considered was how to restore a lost realm. Hu Weiyong and others lacked deep knowledge and were overly selfish. Even if Emperor Taizu wanted a Grand Chancellor to assist him, it would have been impossible! Therefore, the Great Edicts and Ancestral Instructions emphatically stated that his descendants must not forget this: they must not return to the lawlessness of the Mongol Yuan. Thus, I said that Emperor Taizu founded the nation on the Great Way of Yao and Shun, and only in this way could the people of a lost realm be revitalized to rebuild civilization! Otherwise, what would be the difference from the Mongol Yuan?
My Lord Duke, when we were campaigning south, you also asked, thinking I, Zhu Mo, was at odds with the Zhu family... That is because you do not understand the plight of the Zhu family... For the Zhu family to be emperors, they can only be emperors like Yao and Shun; otherwise, they will be no different from the Mongol Yuan, and when the common people no longer owe their destiny, their descendants will have no survivors."
Mu Chaobi listened intently, recalling the directives passed down through generations. They were indeed similar. From Mu Ying onwards, his descendants were repeatedly warned not to forget the Great Edicts for military officials, lest they face utter annihilation. Thinking about it now, it was indeed like the era of Yao and Shun, where destiny came from the people's endowment, unlike in previous dynasties. The reason for this was, as Zhu Mo said, that the people of a lost realm were being revitalized to rebuild civilization. Both the Zhu family and the meritorious officials were leaders of the people and could not be driven by selfish desires...